Jonty Skinner Talks KAATSU

Episode Description

Certified KAATSU Specialist Jonty Skinner, a former world record holder and USA Swimming National and Olympic team coach, was recently inducted in the American Swimming Coaches Association Hall of Fame. He talks about his career and his path to the Hall of Fame above in the ASCA World Clinic in Washington D.C.

His use of KAATSU and KAATSU Aqua was explained here on FloSwimming.

Transcript

As KAATSU evolved in this past year, I kind of evolved into how I used KAATSU. And this is the way I was using it. If I was, you know I’m going to push the computer back a little, but if I had learned to do a pattern of movement that was only in this direction. And I had to change that completely and change it to more of a cutting direction. Now this is completely new.
And as my brain began to learn how this new cutting direction was managed, the iterations of paths that it might follow would be very wide, which means there would be a lot of noise associated with the pattern, which would create a lot of loss of energy and power. So the drive on my end was to create an environment where I could accelerate the brain’s process of learning the acquisition of the pattern and hone it down to where it was exactly the same pattern every time.

Statements made in this podcast have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. For more information about KAATSU and KAATSU products, visit KAATSUglobal.com. That’s K-A-A-T-S-U-Global. com.

We have a really cool guest with us today for kind of a KAATSU interview with his experience with KAATSU and how he’s used it in his sport. Coach Jonty Skinner is joining us today, former world record holder, NCAA champion, International Hall of Famer, was a coach at Alabama for a long time. Jonty has worked with a lot of emerging technology in the sport of swimming. And I think that’s really why Steven and Jonty’s relationship with respect to KAATSU has really blossomed over the years. That is our guest today. Jonty, it’s awesome to have you on board today. Thank you for joining us. Well, you’re welcome. And you know I’ve known Steve for eons, for a long time.

So you know I was always something, you know you’re right about me. I’ve always been someone that has been very interested in anything that is new or different or could change how we see the sport or how we develop the sport or develop athletes. And I’m always looking for that next paradigm that I think is going to make a difference in the long run. And you know from my initial introduction to it with John and Steve in Florida that very first time and some of the initial uses that I used it for in Alabama, it really evolved to some degree to how I used it in Indiana. And I spent a year in Indiana kind of with the new devices, the really more portable little boxes that I thought were really convenient.

My transition went from more of a training kind of tool to more of a skill adaptation tool. So today I’m going to talk more about how I use it in skill adaptation. And to preface that is to understand how the brain manages movement, how the brain really I try to teach athletes that even though they’re athletes and they think of the heart and lungs as the most important organs that we use in performance, the reality is it’s actually the most important organ is the brain because the more exposure, the more opportunity we give the brain exposure to the patterns of movement that they want to use or will utilize in racing and how to manage that pattern of movement, the more skilled it is at reproducing what you want when you’re at the point where you want it the most, which is in racing.

In my line of work as a college coach, I found that pretty much 90% of the athletes that came into my environment needed to learn new skills. And in some cases, I had to reteach them how to swim freestyle. Like they just didn’t understand it. Their technique was to use a euphemism, abysmal. And you know it was just start from scratch. And the way the brain works is the brain wants to be on autopilot.

We think of the left and right hemispheres as controlling left and right side actions of the body. But the reality is the left hemisphere controls everything that we know. Basically, it’s the automation center of all the skill that we know. The right hemisphere is all about exploration, its metaphor, it’s music, it’s a whole different environment.

When you learn something new, a completely new pattern, you have to be, you have to trick the brain into getting into the right hemisphere, which is a challenge in itself because it doesn’t want to do that. It just wants to do what it knows. And once you trick it to get in there to learn new patterns, now you’re in the process of teaching the brain how to manage a completely new pattern at the adult stage, which requires probably a time frame of anywhere from six months if you’re extremely lucky, to probably out to almost two years before that skill acquisition can be honed into where it becomes automated and becomes very good, and you can build strength, power, and performance in that new pattern.

So it takes a long time. I’ve done this many, many times with athletes, and I have a very strong repertoire of tricks and tools in my toolbox that I use to trick the brain to learn something new. As KAATSU evolved in this past year, I kind of evolved into how I used KAATSU. And this is the way I was using it.

If I was, you know I’m going to push the computer back a little, but if I had learned to do a pattern of movement that was only in this direction, and I had to change that completely and change it to more of a cutting direction. Now, this is completely new. And as my brain began to learn how this new cutting direction was managed, the iterations of paths that it might follow would be very wide, which means there would be a lot of noise associated with the pattern, which would create a lot of loss of energy and power.

So the drive on my end was to create an environment where I could accelerate the brain’s process of learning the acquisition of the pattern and hone it down to where it was exactly the same pattern every time. Because once you get there and the brain can manage the movement, it reduces the number of motor units associated with managing the movement, cost goes down, and then eventually builds strength and power on top of that.

I have found that in order to accelerate the process of skill acquisition, I use a concept called contrast training. So in contrast training, what I do is I put the athletes into the environment where I provide resistance and I slow the pattern down to where it’s meticulous, to where they are very meticulous about following a specific pattern of movement with resistance because the brain is very, very much better at learning with resistance back there.

And then I might put little tricks or tools in there to add to make the brain think, “Okay, this is clearly something new. I have to really focus on what I’m doing so that I can master this new pattern because I want to get this down because I don’t want to have to deal with it anymore.” So by adding resistance to the movement, what I did was I would marry the contrast between perfect, resistant, meticulous patterns.

And then I flip right from that to high intensity swimming. So race intensity swimming. So the same pattern but extremely fast. And I asked the swimmers not to kind of focus specifically on what that pattern was because I didn’t want them to do it. I didn’t want them to be encumbered by it. I just wanted to have a sense of, “Okay, this is what I want to do,” and then let them go.

And what I found that is by contrast training, that the process of learning the new pattern or adapting or acquiring the new skill was enhanced. It was accelerated. So then I became said, wait a second, if I add the KAATSU to the slow, meticulous pattern and did the KAATSU in that phase and then took KAATSU off and put them into that high-intensity fast swimming.

What it did was it really helped the swimmer coming off the KAATSU. Not only did they feel good, which in my mind had a cognitive mind-based component. This feels really good. But it also, in my opinion, just added to that process of acceleration. Because the worst thing that happens when you make a change with an athlete and you try to put them into an environment where you’re learning a skill acquisition that is new, it is similar to what you wanted it to be, but it’s new enough to where it creates a difference in opportunity and potential.

But it’s close enough to where the brain says, no, no, no, no, I really want this. This doesn’t interest me at all. So if you employ and you get environments where the actual cognitive thinking mind actually says, “Oh, actually, I think this feels good. I like it.” It makes the brain a little more aware of like, “Okay, maybe it’s something we should keep. We should learn how to understand this and keep it.” So by adding the KAATSU to that element of contrast training during the methodical resistance phase, I feel like I was enhancing the process of learning.

You know, and folks, I use it for recovery. I use it for athletes to get ready to race. I’ve used it in a lot of different areas that are normal ways that we use KAATSU. But this was the most recent way I was employing it in terms of skill acquisition and the rationale behind why I used it that way for skill acquisition. I have a question. So you’ve obviously been focused on swimmers, which just swimming is a very technical movement.

You’re also golfing now, a sport that isn’t your chosen line of work. Could you use it for everything from golfing to, let’s say, physical rehabilitation if you’ve got total knee replacement or what have you? Absolutely. I think, you know, to me, it’s a combination of that, the physical, how the brain kind of deals with the circumstance that you’re dealing with. So this is the physical brain dealing with any circumstance. And then this relationship of that cognitive thinking mind, that the psychology of the situation that adds to the element of if someone feels good, it becomes important. And if it’s important, the brain is going to take notice of it. So to me, like as a golfer, and for those of you who don’t know me, I’m six foot five.

So golfing, you know it’s more for like people around six feet, somewhere in that range, ’cause it’s a little more compact. Movement’s easier to manage. I played golf with a very good baseball player the other day and I said, “Okay, give me the news. What’s worse? Trying to deal with 100 mile an hour fastball or hitting a golf ball?” And he just shook his head. He said, “This is no contest. It’s hitting a golf ball.” He said, “And the worst thing about it is the golf ball’s just sitting there.” So, you know, I spent probably, I’ve been, as trying to learn this game of golf and becoming better at it, I know and understand that I have to develop a process of a pattern of takeaway and movement, which is all over the place, especially when you’re 6’5″. Those iterations are huge.

You know And I’m just learning how takeaway and patterns are involved in steering the ball in the right direction kind of thing. But to me, if I kind of work my swing plane without even a golf ball, I don’t even need a golf ball there. I just need to be working with the patterns, with right resistance on KAATSU and then take everything off and come back to swinging at the speeds that I need to swing at. Because when I swing slow patterns, I can really manipulate and control the pattern versus not with the pattern.

So I feel like, you know, it has both this physiological, neurological, and then on the same end, if you kind of understand how it works with athletes, this whole psychological, cognitive thinking, feel-good process that, you know, to give you an example, the very first time I asked the swimmer to put KAATSU bands on for, I said, you can wear them for 10 minutes in the warm-up. At the time, we were working with KAATSU’s pressure of about two-thirds of her normal working pressure.

And I said, “Just put them on your legs. You know Watch the clock, do your normal warmup, take them off after 10 minutes.” She did. She put them on the side of the deck. She came out of the warm up. She goes, “Oh my God, I feel awesome. I just feel freaking awesome.” Now, was that KAATSU, or was that the cognitive thinking mind saying, “We’re going to kick ass today?” You know, you know, to me, you cannot have one without the other.

You cannot be exclusive in the physical, neural side and not, you know, encounter what this cognitive thinking, psychological side is adding to the equation. What are these sets that you’re doing from the, you know, reducing the noise that we encounter to a high intensity? Are you talking like 400 meters.. something in the 400s? Or what are you talking about? No, no. In a non-KAATSU environment. So if I’m not, if they don’t have KAATSU on, and I could work on the entire spectrum of swimming. So, you know, swimming at slow speeds, all the way up to swimming at race speeds, there’s this curve, there’s this continuum, and you have to be sort of on the path of that continuum. So I would do something like 4 to 625s with resistance, maybe with small paddles on, methodical, perfect patterns of movement.

We’re a total focus. A lot of times, if they’re freestyles, there’s a snorkel on, so they don’t have to worry about dealing with breathing or anything else. And then they just focus on the perfect patterns. And then I flip that, and they would do maybe 475s if I’m working with a VO2 max level with the appropriate amount of rest, and then come back and do it again, just do it again, just flip-flop between the two. And that’s working with a VO2 max environment.

If I wanted to do a pure speed environment or race rate type environment, then I would do the resistance, and then they would be swimming 25 race rate. And I would keep the load, the contrast levels, probably the resistance levels somewhere between 100 and 150 yards, always in 25s. And then the performance side, depending on the energy system I’m trying to hit, I might be out as far as 875s if I’m looking at the endurance kind of cardiovascular component all the way down to 4 to 625s if I’m looking at the speed component.

So it would depend on what component I’m working on. But that’s where I would do it in a non KAATSU. When I included the KAATSU to it, I only work with the speed side. I didn’t do the endurance side. I never had time enough to play with the speed side because the idea didn’t really click into my mind until late October, late November, early December when I was actually changing gears and starting to get my athletes really into that race rate, you know, getting the brain exposure to just being able to manage race rate with new patterns, new power, new strength, you know, things and just honing that side in prior to performance at the Big Tens and then nothing happened beyond that.

So it’s an area that I think is really worth exploration more than I’ve even explored it. But I’ve spent a lot of time really studying neuroscience and mostly on it and don’t get confused. I’m not a neuroscientist. I’m a person that has read a lot about neuroscience. I feel like it is truly the next paradigm in performance because when you truly understand how the brain manages and organizes and deals with patterns of movement, then you change gears on how you train people because you now understand, okay, I’m not training the heart and the lungs. They sort of byproduct. I’m now training the brain. And I’m training the brain how to manage all these other things.

And then you create the environments where you expose the brain to all the elements that it needs to be exposed to in order to put itself in a position where the expectation and the anticipation on race day is meets your goal performance. And really, because I’m one of these people that are always evolving and thinking. And when I learn something new, I’m just reading, I’m just in the process of reading a book called Physical Intelligence, which I find really intriguing and interesting.

You know And then all these thoughts and these notes that I write down as the book evolves. And then I go back and look at stuff from before. So you know it took me a while to kind of come back and say, okay, contrast training came out of a book called Motor Cortex. And that concept was really more about the sport of baseball. It had nothing really to do with swimming.

But in reading it, it made a lot of, you know, a lot of increased my understanding of, because I’m always in this process of helping kids learn to manage better movement, skill acquisition type thing. It made absolute sense to me. So in putting KAATSU and marrying KAATSU into that process made a lot of sense and didn’t come too late. That’s why you know I never went more than 4 to 625s to do the pattern rehearsal.

And then I never really went, you know, more than, you know, with the KAATSU, more than 4 to 625s, just working at velocity. And this would be the sort of sequence that I would go. I would do a KAATSU sequence of 425s, where they have the resistance, and then I’d flip them out of that, and I’d put one pound weights on their wrists. And I would make them some 425s of weight velocity with one pound weights on their wrists because I feel like it is just getting the brain to deal with different dynamics.

Then I’d chill, come back and add some KAATSU with the same format, and then go back to weights with fins and paddles. So then just keeping them just different things at that velocity, getting very comfortable with it, and then come back and do it with nothing on to where I maybe go the first 225s with the equipment on, and then the last 225s with nothing on to slowly take the brain out of dealing with these other elements while performing at this high intensity of race velocity, and then taking them down to race velocity.

I think when they got to those last 225s, you know they just felt good. If you take the weights off and then you start swimming, you feel good. So I was marrying the feel good that you get from KAATSU to the feel good that you get after using weights to this whole cognitive belief system that just says, “This is awesome.” And you’ve potentially turned on a whole, fired up a whole separate section of the brain.

You do, because honestly, you know, one of the things that I don’t think coaches truly understand is the importance of exposing the brain, constantly exposing the brain to different dynamics, different things, you know, just something to just get it out of its comfort zone to start opening up and saying, wow, okay, I need to change gears. I’m fascinated by this because when we have guys that have massive TBI, let’s say, and they can’t move their hand or they have it like clenched up in the fist, then they put the KAATSU bands on into cycle mode and the therapists help them.

And sometimes it only takes five or 10 minutes and then they’re moving. I’m not talking a spinal cord injury. I’m talking a brain injury. So with that autonomic nervous system response like that, and that’s what you’re doing, you’re working in that space with competitive athletes, which is .Yeah, it’s somewhat similar. Awesome. Yeah. Imagine there’d be no question that you’d have your kids into those environments.

You know, if they had them on swim benches or pulley systems or tubing, you know, that would maintain the functional power that they had when they were in the pool on a constant basis. Eight of my kids were very dedicated to using KAATSU during the time, doing simple things like adding KAATSU bands to their dry land practice, doing, and Stephen saw it, I had kids in endless pools using KAATSU bands, in the open water using KAATSU bands because our time was a lot less. And what I have written down in a very, very scientific way in a notebook and pencil is we are now in the pool and my kids are not as fit as they were before, they’re more fit. I believe that they’re faster than they ever were. Now I think that there’s an element that they actually have recovered a little bit from just being broken from me and kind of the old school side of swimming.

But I have kids who, after four months of not touching water, a best time of a 146, 200 yard freestyle going 149 in practice. So I’m blown away at how fit they are right now. I don’t know Steve if that answers it, but just we’ve been using KAATSU more than before and it’s incredible because aerobically I feel like they haven’t lost very much. The more, especially in this past year, the more I felt where the value of KAATSU came in when you’re actually in the pool was this hole where I’ve evolved and advanced to where it is managing and understanding and building power and strength in patterns of movement. So I don’t think it matters what distance you swim. I think it matters when you train with KAATSU what distances you swim.

And I don’t think it’s necessary for, I mean, I might hypothetically say I would KAATSU a swimmer and then maybe the distant swimmers would swim you know maybe 650s or 850s. To me, it’s just about exposing the brain to what it’s managing and how it’s going to manage it and then marrying the two together in that contrast style. So you know it doesn’t matter the distance, doesn’t matter the athlete physiology, I think the process would be fairly similar up and down the chain.

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So I love the concept of this whole mental part of the training and the idea of neuroplasticity, I highly recommend that’s what I was trying to do while you guys were talking about it. There’s a book called “The Brain That Changes Itself.” I don’t know if any of you have ever read that. Fabulous. Audiobook. Yeah. Well, again, I’ve done it both ways, but there’s also a video on, I think it’s Amazon Prime about it. But you know the concept, especially to us in Westernized medicine, is so foreign. I mean, it’s kind of taken off recently.

But you know my father had a major stroke, and I wish I would have known some of these concepts of him concentrating on the paralyzed side rather than so I like the concept. I have not honestly used those. And like I say, I’m a triathlete because I’m trying to be an athlete. I pretty much suck at everything. But I really like the concepts of getting older. And as you get into your late 50s, it becomes more of a challenge to stay active. And I really like the idea and concept of KAATSU allowing me to do that and to hopefully even improve. I mean, I may not necessarily get a whole lot faster, but at least maintain. And these are new concepts for me. I’m a big visualization person. Again, I’m terrible at golf too, so I may have to try my KAATSU with my golf swing. But I love these concepts and ideas from elite people like yourselves.

Yeah. Jonty, just so you know, when I first met Dr. Sato, he separated KAATSU into three areas, three basic areas. One was the KAATSU cycle. So for the warm-up, rehabilitation, warm down, KAATSU training, which is just constant pressure. But he also had a third area.

And it was more difficult for me to get the information out of him because it was applied by the elite baseball, swimming, wrestling, et cetera, coaches in Japan. And he called it performance training. And performance training for him with KAATSU was almost exactly what you described. You know Purposeful movement. He called it something like mindful movement with KAATSU. Yep And then he would but what they didn’t do is they didn’t go backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards. What they did was mindful movement and then race pace or whatever that movement was. They just did it once and twice. And I really like you know you’re going back and forth and back and forth to eliminate that noise and make that perfect movement. I think that’s brilliant.

It accelerates, it’s the learning process. And it’s hard. It’s not easy. I mean, I’ve done this for years and years and years as a coach. You know I worked for USA Swimming and I would show up at someone’s pool, some university and film athletes, and I’d sit down with the coach and the athlete and I’d take them through all the things that were glaring errors. I mean, I’m calling glaring errors. And they both sit there and go, wow, I had no idea what was going on. Yes, we got to change that. I’d give them some basic drills to help them change. And then I’d come back a month later. I’d see them in a competition a month later and guess what? Same thing. Nothing had changed, right? So you know it wasn’t a motor, it wasn’t necessarily like as coaches, we think of a motor thing, you know it had to be here.

You know So that’s what led me to the very first book I read was Norman Deutsche’s The Brain The Changes itself. It was the very first book I read. Awesome. And then from there, you know that expanded to books and books and books on the brain and how it manages movement and that thinking. And then I’m one of those lucky people that I’ve had this pool of guinea pigs in front of me that I just kind of threw stuff at them. And I’ll leave you with one funny anecdote. But I always, you know, coaches have this, swimming coaches have this problem as they relate the way a shape moves through water. They always talk about the hand and you know we’re wired for hands and feet. We’re actually wired for hands and feet in terms of neurology, but they always talk about the hand moving past the body. When we talk about patterns of movement, we always relate it that way. A coach might stand on deck and go, put your hand in the water this way, get a high elbow position, you know and then the hand will move past the body as the coach traces the pattern.

Well, the problem with that is the brain sort of wants to do it the same way. Instead, the coach had put the hand in the water and basically walk his body past the hand following those same patterns of changes in movement. That’s the mistake. So you know the idea is that I wanted the kids to become more aware of their shape. I wanted them to become more aware of the flow of water around their shape. I wanted to be sensitized to it.

So I had this, I think it was a 10-year-old boy at the time. And I cut a whole bunch of these nylon strings. I mean, a whole bunch of them, you know and I taped them onto his shoulders so they were flowing down his body and his legs on both sides. And I put a pair of fins on him, and I just wanted him to go down the pool, up and down the pool, and then come back to me and say, do you feel, do you feel what’s going on with these bands? I wanted the brain to become sensitized to these strands of string as they float around his body. At the same time, I was watching and filming on deck, watching how they changed based on the vortices as they came off his body. Well, to cut a long story short, what I used initially, very first day one, I used duct tape to put him on his shoulders. Well, that left this huge red welt on his shoulders. So I’m like, when he puts his shirt on at the end of practice, I say, son, do not take your shirt up at home and don’t tell your mom about your shoulders.

You know And the other time, when I took that to British swimming and I had a really elite level breaststroke, I mean, he was on the British Olympic team. And I had taped this on his pecs. And I had KT tape at that time. So I had a non-invasive tape on him. So I put this KT tape with all these strands coming down because he’s a breaststroker and I wanted him to kind of feel flow. Well, I got him all taped up with the KT tape on his chest. It happened to be pink at the time. Unfortunately, all these tassels hanging down and all I got was hoots, cat whistles, and whistles from the kids in the audience. It looked like some kind of belly dancer. I mean, I still feel like it’s a crucial concept for when swimmers start to realize that understanding that how this shape moves through water and the feel of the flow of water over that shape. And if we can sensitize people to kind of sense that, then I think they change the paradigm of how they manipulate their anchoring positions as they vault the shape through the water.

Do you ever use a higher pressure or lower pressure to achieve what you want to achieve? How does pressure play a part of this? The pressure played a part in that, you know when I chose the pressure for contrast KAATSU, I went with the same concept that originally when I had kids warm up with a KAATSU band on their legs, at the time, in talking with Chris and yourself, the rule of thumb was go to two-thirds of their training pressure.

So that’s what I did. If they were training with 240, they went to like 180 or somewhere in that range. And you know if they felt like that still wasn’t the right comfort, I’d let them go lower. Because ultimately, I want them to kind of have this great feeling. It had more of a cognitive thinking, psychological plus, even though we know that it has physiological, you know what it does physiologically to the flow. So I went with that same premise and went down that same path with this. And I felt like that was the right place to be for this specific type of thing.

Because I feel like if you get to that point where the pressure is at a seven or an eight, you know in terms of the Borg scale, sometimes there was too much discomfort to really get to that good zone right away. If we think of, you know and we’ve had some examples, Jonty, in these last weeks of a fellow colleague of Steve and myself, a swim coach working with people who was a gentleman had a stroke, Steve, I believe, and was able to move for the first time in 10 years.

So I’m thinking as we get older, and you know thinking of my own parents, as my mom says, she loves to walk and she just feels like she wants to walk that far, but she can’t. So I’m thinking if I just start to have her walk with the KAATSU bands on, you know is it the same thing where she’s going to train her brain? And it’s the race pain that I talk about. Her walk brain to be able to, when she gets tired, to be able to actually go further because her brain knows it can go further. I don’t know if that made sense. I put the KAATSU on her before she did the walk. Yeah I’d prep her for the walk. I wouldn’t walk with them on.

Yes, I’m putting together, I don’t know if it’ll be a book book you know because I’m just thinking about how to disseminate information into the media environments. And the people today, it might really ultimately just be a website, brain training for swimmers that then you can go in and pick and choose what you want to kind of look at. If I want to understand how to freestyle or this or brain training or contrast training, then you go and get what you want. You might say, “Get the book,” or you might get parts of the book, or you might just get one section type of thing. I mean, I think the predisposition for people, younger people today, have a hard time sitting down reading through a book. You know So the idea is if they can get something that they can sit down and absorb and gather in 10 to 20 minutes of reading, I think that the value in that is much higher, and they have something right there and then they can take and act upon within the space of the day as opposed to going through a whole book. And you know I find sometimes people get sidetracked when they get into a book, and all of a sudden, you know they don’t even read the rest of the book because they get sidetracked in the first chapter, and you know they’re off and running. So this way it’ll be kind of like maybe a piecemeal kind of thing.

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